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SaladEsc
 
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Re: [French] Translation Discussion

by SaladEsc Sat Jan 14, 2017 3:13 pm

In modern french, "muraille" means BIG wall, as in the wall of china and nothing less! A HUGE wall basically.

"mur" just means wall. That could be a wall in a house, or an actual wall.
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Gijs
 
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Re: [French] Translation Discussion

by Gijs Sat Jan 14, 2017 4:22 pm

You mean 'muraille' means quite literally a defensive wall right? I thought it could also be a city wall, like in the Chanson de Chartres (our national anthem is based on this melody so I am really familiar with the text :P):

Ou si monsieur le prince
Envoyra son canon
Au pied de voz murailles

But I suppose a 'muraille' is always made of stone, especially for contemporaries in the 11th-16 century. I mean if we think about a defensive wall, we wouldn't be suprised if it is made out of other material than stone anno 2017. However, I guess these Frenchies from Medieval time always meant a wall made out of stone, so in my opinion it is uselss to add the 'of stone' part in 'wall of stone'. It's not like a knight went from the court of his king to a city to deliver a message, only to see a 'muraille' in a poor, wooden shape. These walls were always made of stone, especially around a city.

Odly enough, in the original texts of the Chanson de Roland, I found at least 3 instances of 'mur' were French medieval historian Joseph Bédier translates it to 'muraille' (5 (I), 97 (VIII) and 237 (XVI)). The contexts shows us that in all three cases it was definitely a defensive wall, so I guess Bédier wasn't crazy or something. Of course at the time city walls as we know them were very well known in all of Europe, but apparentely in the language that was used in the Chanson de Roland there was no distinction between a normal wall in a building and a wall that was used in a defensive way.

I believe this distinction was not made in Latin either, but correct me if I am wrong. So muraille appears to be a word that was introduced later, perhaps when the fortications in Europe changed because of the increase in weapons by gunpowder, perhaps earlier but after the Chanson de Roland. But nevertheless, since already modern words like 'Fortresse' are used, 'Muraille' would be perfect for a stone wall in my opinion.

I don't know what the wooden wall would look like in Empires Apart, is it like a palisade? Because then we only need to add a extra 's' :lol:
Gijs van Everdingen

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spacktion
 
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Re: [French] Translation Discussion

by spacktion Sat Jan 14, 2017 10:10 pm

'Les lais de Marie de France' from around 1200 also had two translations for wall.
'murail' was rarely used but in context it would be more of a city wall, while 'mur' was used more frequently but as more of just a wall... something for like a fort for example. I only added the 'de piere' for ease of translation since you could simply change 'piere' for the old french word for wood and get the wooden wall counterpart.

I also don't know if it's always the best way to 100% accurately translate the words. For example in 'Les lais de Marie de France' I found that 'porte' was used for 'door' but was also translated as 'gate'. I'm pretty sure there is a more specific old french word for 'gate' but 'porte' is really recognisable for someone with a little knowledge of language like latin etc.
gamevideo113
 
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Re: [French] Translation Discussion

by gamevideo113 Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:00 am

I looked a bit into etymology (which i think might be the best idea to find some old words) and i found that Cavalier comes from either provencal or french. The former used cavalliers or cavayers while the latter used chevalier or cavalier (probably this one is due to italian influence) so i guess we might want to stick to one of these for cavalry

Source: http://www.etimo.it/?term=cavaliere


Edit: this might be interesting as well if someone can figure what's written here https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gen%C3%A8 ... %C3%A9vale
gamevideo113
 
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Re: [French] Translation Discussion

by gamevideo113 Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:10 am

I found this websites whic apparently contain old french dictionaries! (PogChamp)

http://www.lexilogos.com/etymologie.htm

http://www.atilf.fr/dmf/

I haven't looked into them much yet but they look promising


I also noticed that "elite" and "chosen" basically mean the same thing so maybe we should change one of the two. What's your opinion?
gamevideo113
 
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Re: [French] Translation Discussion

by gamevideo113 Sun Jan 15, 2017 2:46 pm

I promise i will stop spamming after this post but i searched for some of the words that were missing and i filled some gaps, although i'm not really sure about many and i think we should have some french people attest what we found (just to be sure not to write bs).

Looking forward to help with the other civs as well :D
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vernocchi
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Re: [French] Translation Discussion

by vernocchi Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:39 pm

I've added a sub project for the shouts - the phrases that the units will say when selected or ordered.

Essentially there are 6 phrases for each "class": 2 selection phrases, 2 moving phrases, 2 attack/action phrases. I've included some examples of what the phrases should be - this should not be taken literally - We're not looking to translate "What is your command?" but something that could convey the same meaning, since every language has its own nuances. Phrases should be very short (1 to 3 words tops) because they will be heard often and in rapid sequence.

Especially for the heroes there could be more chances to pull from the Chanson de Roland and other historical documents for quotes for Jeanne d'Arc.
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